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Thread: Crank upgrade...

  1. #21
    Mojo Slow-poke Austin Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidingAgain View Post
    But there purchase support help v2.0 become a reality.
    As someone said above, it is not my job to be a beta tester. I was in tech for 25+ years. I have beta tested most major software and even a lot of hardware. In many cases I was paid or received "in kind" compensation for the work that I did. I gave up when companies scaled back, preferring to ship a product and get beta information from cash paying customers. I feel the same about bike parts. If they nail v1.0 then v2.0 will be a reality. If they screw up v1.0, it is not my responsibility to fund their mistakes so that they can get it right on the next version.

    I hate that my KS-i950R has a seat-mounted cable; my KS-LEV has a collar mounted cable. V1.0 was solid enough for me to buy, that helped fund the Lev. But look at all of the other droppers that failed during that same time period. There was one with the lever mounted under the front of the seat - so as you come up on a hairy downhill you take your hand off the bars and start fumbling down between your legs. They learned, not through user feedback on purchased items, but on no sales in the market.

    The school of hard knocks is a bitch, but it is essential when trying to push any technology.

    Friends don't let friends fund stupid ideas.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Bike View Post
    Friends don't let friends fund stupid ideas.
    Not always true. Toninator has been encouraging me to fund stupid ideas for years.

  3. #23
    Mojo Slow-poke Austin Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schoolie View Post
    Best case, these guys have no idea what they're talking about. Worst case, they're trying to scam people with a bunch of marketing BS.

    Yep, as a marketing veteran, here is how numbers work:

    Number with a zero (10%) - Nope, we have no way of knowing, probably fake

    Whole number with odd final integer (13%) - 50/50; either it is real or it is made up because it sounds more precise

    Number with a decimal point (10.8%) - We can run an ad with a guy named "Gunter" in a lab coat and make it look like real science, but we got that number from averaging out multiple data points

    If you are wondering what a real number is, marketing doesn't really know. If you have one number, it is the word of god. If you have 2 numbers one is right and one is wrong. If you have 3+ numbers you have no idea what the truth is.
    "A person can work up a mean, mean thirst after a hard day of nothing much at all" - Paul Westerberg

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  4. #24
    Mojo Slow-poke Austin Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicewookie View Post
    Not always true. Toninator has been encouraging me in stupid ideas for years.

    Well if he is giving you cash, keep taking it. We all encourage you to do stupid things. By the way, leaving for Hong Kong in a few weeks, get me your orders
    "A person can work up a mean, mean thirst after a hard day of nothing much at all" - Paul Westerberg

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  5. #25
    MoJo Mother Superior notyal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schoolie View Post
    Yep. All this is doing is making the chainrings spin faster than the cranks, which is exactly the same as a larger chainring. To top it off, there are losses in the planetary set that actually reduce the overall efficiency of the drivetrain.

    "Because the system is a claimed 10.8 percent more efficient than a regular crankset at delivering torque..."

    This is just hilarious. A standard chain/sprocket setup is well over 97% efficient, more like 98.5-99% with a clean chain and new parts. Where are they finding an extra 7-8%? Unless this thing's an ebike, this claim isn't physically possible. Best case, these guys have no idea what they're talking about. Worst case, they're trying to scam people with a bunch of marketing BS.
    I think it's the "at delivering torque" qualifier. It doesn't say "at delivering power" or "energy".

    POWER (the rate of doing WORK) is dependent on TORQUE and RPM.
    Power = Torque x RPM 5252

    So, with the same power input from your legs, you get more torque per RPM of the the cranks because the chainring is spinning faster. Ghost math.

    Do you know what else is 10.8% more efficient at delivering torque? A 10.8% longer crankarm, but that power still ain't free. You now have a 10.8% longer radius on each of those Rs per M.
    Last edited by notyal; 07-24-2018 at 11:00 AM.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Bike View Post
    Well if he is giving you cash, keep taking it. We all encourage you to do stupid things. By the way, leaving for Hong Kong in a few weeks, get me your orders
    We have a "race the Baja 1000 in a Polaris Razr" fund going.

    Put me down for some gelatinous duck feet (2), to go!

  7. #27
    Mojo Slow-poke Austin Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidingAgain View Post
    People are individual creatures... With individual needs and preferences.
    Which is why products fail. When your target market is not "guys who ride 10+ hours per week in technical XC trails" and is instead "Bob", you will fail.

    Products are made or killed based on commercial success, not technical advantages. Beta was far superior to VHS. But beta had higher licensing and was more restrictive; VHS was less restrictive and the lesser technology got market traction.
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  8. #28
    MoJo Mother Superior RidingAgain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schoolie View Post
    Best case, these guys have no idea what they're talking about. Worst case, they're trying to scam people with a bunch of marketing BS.
    Sounds like your typical consumer product industry.

  9. #29
    MoJo Mother Superior Cafeend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrider3141 View Post
    +1 for the AB Oval. By far the best thing is traction, I seldom spin-out on climbs. The adjustment period is like 1-2 rides tops.
    Curious
    Are you not spinning out because of maybe better tires? Better position on the bike? The trail itself?
    Im always curious because there always so many variables that can allow for a result not necessarily an AB Oval



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  10. #30
    I came here for the Tacos redrider3141's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cafeend View Post
    Curious
    Are you not spinning out because of maybe better tires? Better position on the bike? The trail itself?
    Im always curious because there always so many variables that can allow for a result not necessarily an AB Oval



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Fair question. Same tires (Kenda Nevegals), same trails before and after (in WA), albeit I can tell that it's working well here too.

    Best way to answer it is that before, I had to think about adjusting body posture on a climb to compromise between weighting the front tire and keeping traction, now I don't or at least I am 95% concentrating on weighting the front wheel.

    Another new sensation: You know that moment when you crest a ledge/rock/root and your cranks all but stall out? Now I just push through it with all I got and it doesn't spin out, I just slowly accelerate out of it.

    I'm not saying it's magic, I'm saying it makes for noticeable real world improvements especially for a weekend warrior like me. Others with better body position control/skill might not notice as big of a change I 'spose.
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  11. #31
    MoJo Mother Superior yosmithy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrider3141 View Post
    same trails before and after (in WA),
    Where at in WA?

  12. #32
    MoJo Mother Superior RidingAgain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Bike View Post
    Which is why products fail. When your target market is not "guys who ride 10+ hours per week in technical XC trails" and is instead "Bob", you will fail.
    Unless the Bobs of this world like and buy into your product.

    Product development history is full of products that targeted one consumer group/application but then found success in another consumer group/application.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/succ...per-cleaner-11

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Bike View Post
    Products are made or killed based on commercial success, not technical advantages.
    Sure... That's pretty much the goal of business. But to suggest that a product's technical advantage plays no part in a product's commercial success is siilly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin Bike View Post
    Beta was far superior to VHS. But beta had higher licensing and was more restrictive; VHS was less restrictive and the lesser technology got market traction.
    I know, my father, someone who preferred to buy better quality, first bought Sony's Beta product. But later on, because video stores were carrying more VHS movies, he switched to VHS.

    Here's a short take on what happened...Stories of Tech Failure: Betamax

    As I'm sure you know, successful product development — especially consumer products — isn't about hitting one mark... But hitting multiple marks. And that's what JVC did with VHS.

    Yet, tell me when you last went out and bought a JVC product, or even thought about JVC when buying an electronic product? I know I can't say I have in decades. How about a Sony product? A quick check shows JVC valued at $500+-billion in annual revenue... And Sony at $600+-billion. Someone must be buying their products.

    A funny thing about comsumer markets... The consumers in these markets tend to forget that there are other consumers in other markets.

  13. #33
    I came here for the Tacos redrider3141's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yosmithy View Post
    Where at in WA?
    East of Seattle: Mostly Tiger, Duthie, St. Edward, Paradise, Redmond Watershed.
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  14. #34
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    So glad I held on to those Shimano Biopace rings.
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  15. #35
    MoJo Priest schoolie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notyal View Post
    I think it's the "at delivering torque" qualifier. It doesn't say "at delivering power" or "energy".

    POWER (the rate of doing WORK) is dependent on TORQUE and RPM.
    Power = Torque x RPM 5252

    So, with the same power input from your legs, you get more torque per RPM of the the cranks because the chainring is spinning faster. Ghost math.

    Do you know what else is 10.8% more efficient at delivering torque? A 10.8% longer crankarm, but that power still ain't free. You now have a 10.8% longer radius on each of those Rs per M.
    Sure, they might be trying to claim a torque increase (while ignoring the requisite speed decrease that goes along with it). Instead they're showing a speed increase of 44%, and also claiming a torque increase of 10.8%. There's literally no way to make their statements make any sort of sense from an engineering standpoint.

    Doing the real math, they're speeding up the chainring by 1.44, and losing some power in the planetary gearset efficiency. The actual torque output at the chainring is 1/1.44 * ~0.98 = 0.68 x the torque you put in. Torque at the wheel can end up the almost the same by running a 1.44x larger sprocket or 1.44x smaller chainring, but there's no way to get the ~2% power loss of the planetary back, no matter how you slice it.

    The only advantage of this type of system would be the ability to run smaller chainrings.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicewookie View Post
    So glad I held on to those Shimano Biopace rings.
    I actually do have several brand new road Biopace rings I want to put onto a bike! Also, good thing I kept my original Hite-Rite instead of all these stupid cable actuated dropper posts.
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  17. #37
    MoJo Mother Superior RidingAgain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redrider3141 View Post
    East of Seattle: Mostly Tiger, Duthie, St. Edward, Paradise, Redmond Watershed.
    redrider... My stepson is seriously considering moving to Tacoma... Any thoughts on living there?

  18. #38
    Shop Owner/Frame Builder CBaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schoolie View Post
    The only advantage of this type of system would be the ability to run smaller chainrings.
    This is what I was going to follow up with. I.e. you can essentially accomplish the same thing that they're claiming by chaining your chainring size by the same % as what their planetary gear is at. I had not accounted for the efficiency loss of the planetary system though. (nor could I do all the fancy math) I just know stupid when I see it...


    Remember, I'm not a fan of this "technology"....but if one wanted to use it for "good" instead of BS marketing reasons: then take my Stache hardtail with its elevated chain stay. The physical size of the front chainring is limited because of chain interference if the ring is too big. You could use this crankset to "increase" chainring size/ratio in order to get an "effective change". But this kind of thing is a super edge-type-case. You may be able to do something similar with a SS setup when needing a different ratio or if you have a vertical dropout running SS with a "magic ring" combo but needed/wanted a different effective ratio. Yet, another edge-case...

    Later,
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  19. #39
    I came here for the Tacos redrider3141's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RidingAgain View Post
    redrider... My stepson is seriously considering moving to Tacoma... Any thoughts on living there?
    I wouldn't live in Tacoma unless there is something drawing him there, at least not in the city itself. The West Side of Washington has plenty of great places to live but have him do some checking on Zillow before he commits to anywhere. Housing is crazy there, not just in city limits, like everywhere. Imagine Downtown Austin House Prices, but instead, from San Marcos to Georgetown and everything in between. You want to know what Austin will look like in 10-15 years? To me Austin Looks just like Seattle in 2003.
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  20. #40
    Mojo Slow-poke Austin Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spicewookie View Post
    We have a "race the Baja 1000 in a Polaris Razr" fund going.

    Put me down for some gelatinous duck feet (2), to go!
    Gotcha, but I think you mean chicken feet. It was chicken feet or duck neck. Now, I will say that in Beijing I'll be sure to have some duck webs with spicy mustard - that is a must have meal, but it will not travel well like the necks and feet will.
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