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Thread: Brushy Creek Regional Singletrack

  1. #81
    MoJo Mother Superior Morealice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdurt View Post
    Or they will attempt to sanitize, as has already begun (see my post above).
    Yeah, that has been going on for a while. That part is called Dare. The easy line down is Truth. As in one night I was tired and riding without gloves (yeah, I know), and I "knew the truth"...slippery hands and being blown up, I swallowed my pride and eased down to the left....and the point is with it being public land...it always will go on...and I will stop EVERY SINGLE TIME and throw the rocks they use just as far down the hill as I can. *closes can of worms that lives on another thread*

  2. #82
    MoJo Mother Superior Morealice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boon View Post
    Agreed there doesn't need to be full on advertising along the BCRT directing folks to the trail system. That being said it's totally awesome that we can talk about it now on the open forum.

    I personally air on the side of caution when riding deception if you lose focus that's when you bail and bail hard. I believe that this is an opportunity for us to set an example for noobs educate when the opportunity presents it's self
    I educate....I yell "get a fucking helmet"...

  3. #83
    MoJo Mother Superior Chardog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chardog View Post
    I was careful to ID the type of tree we took out (Mountain Juniper aka. Cedar) Probably should have given that more emphasis.
    In the interest of accuracy, the Mountain Juniper in question was a very large shrub size, enough to be formidable to remove but not a very mature tree sized cedar. I avoid taking out very large, mature tree size cedars as not only are they too large to be worth removing, they also provide nesting material for the GCW.
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  4. #84
    Thumb Shifter Addict traube's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=mellowdave;1109103][QUOTE=NickJ;1108959]I have not ridden Mulligan, Barn, or Picnic at all. I am super excited to get out there and try them out!

    .

    I also had never ridden Mulligan or Picnic, .
    I guess its ok to post video on here now...
    Mulligan: Mulligan - YouTube
    Picnic: Picnic - YouTube

    I don't do the larger first drop on picnic, it looks pretty tame on video (I'm just a f'ng wus).

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by traube View Post
    I guess its ok to post video on here now...
    Mulligan: Mulligan - YouTube
    Picnic: Picnic - YouTube

    I don't do the larger first drop on picnic, it looks pretty tame on video (I'm just a f'ng wus).
    AWESOME Brother! Thank you!

  6. #86
    MoJo Mother Superior Morealice's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=traube;1109130][QUOTE=mellowdave;1109103]
    Quote Originally Posted by NickJ View Post
    I have not ridden Mulligan, Barn, or Picnic at all. I am super excited to get out there and try them out!

    .

    I guess its ok to post video on here now...
    Mulligan: Mulligan - YouTube
    Picnic: Picnic - YouTube

    I don't do the larger first drop on picnic, it looks pretty tame on video (I'm just a f'ng wus).
    That first drop on Picnic....called The Basket...first time I hit that was at night....I had skipped it a couple of times and I figured I knew how it was supposed to feel, so I just kinda did it where I didn't let the visual stop me, but it's just a test of commitment. It's definitely a mind F, but it has become one of my favorite little features along with the other sketchy drop in the back of that loop. I also love the log and will continue to keep removing little half-ass piled "supplemental logs" people put in front and behind it.

  7. #87
    Mojo GoPro gotdurt's Avatar
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    Just got back from Deception; had to remove another pile of rocks/boulders and re-blocked 2 of the problem cut-throughs... thinking about going out and screwing the branches together and to adjacent trees...
    Over the hill, and shredding down
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  8. #88
    MoJo Mother Superior Morealice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdurt View Post
    Just got back from Deception; had to remove another pile of rocks/boulders and re-blocked 2 of the problem cut-throughs... thinking about going out and screwing the branches together and to adjacent trees...
    Yeah, it's time to dig in against those not respecting the spirit of the trail.

    I'd just run stuff past Rugger; he is an official trail steward with Williamson County now.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotdurt View Post
    I've also blocked shortcuts etc, only to return to find them unblocked, pretty frustrating. This will only get worse as it grows in popularity, so we need to be vigilant in controlling it.
    Please explain why shortcuts are so terrible? Are they made improperly so that they will erode out? Or is it because it changes the "vision" that the trail creator had?
    Someone mentioned being an "elitist." I wonder if this is where the anti-shortcut, anti-alternate line creating, mentality comes from.

    I am torn about it. I think that the more people that become involved in mountain biking the better voice we will have in getting more trails built, opened up, and protected. To get more beginners into the sport you need beginner level trails for them to start on. Then they progress to the more fun/challenging trails.
    But of course once all these trails are built I want to be the only one on them! Like I said, I am torn.

    Skiing mountains have all different skill levels of trails. People with a wide range of abilities enjoying the same mountain. Even on the same trails there might be a challenging mogul field on one side but an easier path along the edge. Two choices for one trail. It works.

  10. #90
    hold my beer and watch this! RMBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tip View Post
    Please explain why shortcuts are so terrible? Are they made improperly so that they will erode out? Or is it because it changes the "vision" that the trail creator had?
    Someone mentioned being an "elitist." I wonder if this is where the anti-shortcut, anti-alternate line creating, mentality comes from.

    I am torn about it. I think that the more people that become involved in mountain biking the better voice we will have in getting more trails built, opened up, and protected. To get more beginners into the sport you need beginner level trails for them to start on. Then they progress to the more fun/challenging trails.
    But of course once all these trails are built I want to be the only one on them! Like I said, I am torn.

    Skiing mountains have all different skill levels of trails. People with a wide range of abilities enjoying the same mountain. Even on the same trails there might be a challenging mogul field on one side but an easier path along the edge. Two choices for one trail. It works.
    have you ridden Brushy Creek yet? The original trailbuilders built multiple lines on things like Truth and Dare to allow for people to have options.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyone
    Is Walnut Dry?

  11. #91
    Mojo Funky Mofo rugger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tip View Post
    Please explain why shortcuts are so terrible? Are they made improperly so that they will erode out? Or is it because it changes the "vision" that the trail creator had?
    Someone mentioned being an "elitist." I wonder if this is where the anti-shortcut, anti-alternate line creating, mentality comes from.

    I am torn about it. I think that the more people that become involved in mountain biking the better voice we will have in getting more trails built, opened up, and protected. To get more beginners into the sport you need beginner level trails for them to start on. Then they progress to the more fun/challenging trails.
    But of course once all these trails are built I want to be the only one on them! Like I said, I am torn.

    Skiing mountains have all different skill levels of trails. People with a wide range of abilities enjoying the same mountain. Even on the same trails there might be a challenging mogul field on one side but an easier path along the edge. Two choices for one trail. It works.
    I am not talking about short cuts to skip a feature, but short cuts to loop back out or to cut through the trees back to the BCRT. You talk of "vision" as if to imply "someone's opinion that should not be the rule" (yes I am assuming), but in reality without that vision the trail would not be. I call it the "spirit" of the trail - the ideas that built the trail are this: tight, highly technical, fun, flow, challenge, sustainable

    Short cuts create a spiderweb of trails, which ultimately create much wider intersections. A spiderweb of trails is not fun, a single trail or signed loops is fun, but not random shortcuts create in haste, laziness, spite or convenience. If short cutting was not frown upon and limited what's to stop the entire trail from becoming a complete mess of webs?

    Not are trails are for all riders - ppl need to accept it and move on to those trails that they are capable of or ride the tougher trails as they exist and build their skills. It's not elitist, it just is.

    Have you ridden here? Do you actually have an idea of the amount of real estate we are talking about? There is not much room for alternate lines, in some areas there is and there are alternate lines.
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  12. #92
    MoJo Mother Superior Chardog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tip View Post
    Skiing mountains have all different skill levels of trails. People with a wide range of abilities enjoying the same mountain. Even on the same trails there might be a challenging mogul field on one side but an easier path along the edge. Two choices for one trail. It works.
    Ideally, as will ski areas, a trail system would have a "stacked loop system" where easier trail loops are closer to the trailhead and the progressively more difficult stuff is further in the system requiring a bit more effort to get too.

    Alternate lines and filters are both effective techniques to passively manage trail use and add to a trails sustainability. A well designed trail that prevents erosion issues is one aspect of sustainability, but another important aspect is for a trail to be able to function long term without constant maintenance.
    "Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to work out in a gym."
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  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tip View Post
    Please explain why shortcuts are so terrible? Are they made improperly so that they will erode out? Or is it because it changes the "vision" that the trail creator had?
    Someone mentioned being an "elitist." I wonder if this is where the anti-shortcut, anti-alternate line creating, mentality comes from.
    It definitely does for me. Short cuts = easier access. Easier access = more riders. More riders = more trail use. More trail use = more trail changes. The best trails I ride on are the ones that don't get much traffic. Elitist, but absolutely true.

    I remember riding Walnut Creek in the late 90's. It actually used to have singletrack instead of 4 lane dirt roads. Then, people like me stated telling other folks about the trail, hosting rides, showing routes, etc - and it became popular. With popularity came trail damage and trail sanitation. Idiots riding when the trail was wet. People making their own lines... Now singletrack is a rarity there. The primary thing that made the trail appealing has been lost because the trail is (was?) appealing.

    Brushy Creek is fun because it's tight. It's so tight, that if the trail is widened much, it will end up overlapping itself. It's also bidirectional - which combined with its tight nature makes for interesting experiences when meeting riders coming the other way. If it gets popular, via signs, easier entries, more publicity, etc - then I guarantee that it will get wider, easier and less enjoyable. It's a lot like WC 15 years ago - just more technical. I'd prefer to be a snob and keep it to myself.
    Last edited by TechniKal; 09-19-2013 at 10:45 AM.

  14. #94
    Easily Distracted Dielectric Lab's Avatar
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    There are two types of riders, as I see it. One who is willing to challenge themselves, try to improve, and willing to walk something that they are not capable of riding.
    And then there are those who want to modify the trail so they can "make" everything with ease, never having to put a foot on the ground. There is a lot of satisfaction of clearing something that for years you have never cleaned, and those people are missing out on that.

    If it's no fun getting off your bike because too many things are above their head, maybe you are on the wrong trail. Do we need to build an escalator up Mount Everest so more people can enjoy it?
    LEEC likes this.

  15. #95
    MoJo Mother Superior Morealice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tip View Post
    Please explain why shortcuts are so terrible? Are they made improperly so that they will erode out? Or is it because it changes the "vision" that the trail creator had?
    Someone mentioned being an "elitist." I wonder if this is where the anti-shortcut, anti-alternate line creating, mentality comes from.

    I am torn about it. I think that the more people that become involved in mountain biking the better voice we will have in getting more trails built, opened up, and protected. To get more beginners into the sport you need beginner level trails for them to start on. Then they progress to the more fun/challenging trails.
    But of course once all these trails are built I want to be the only one on them! Like I said, I am torn.

    Skiing mountains have all different skill levels of trails. People with a wide range of abilities enjoying the same mountain. Even on the same trails there might be a challenging mogul field on one side but an easier path along the edge. Two choices for one trail. It works.
    I'm out of energy trying to explain this, and before I (and a couple others) spent hours and hours over the course of 18+ months hand benching what is basically solid rock after hand cutting corridor I didn't get it either.

    The bottom line is...there will be people making sure the rock stacking and lame attempts at making certain features easier are thwarted every time it's done. After about the 8th time of someone giving a name and number and saying they "wanted to help" and then not showing or answering texts....a builder ultimately realizes that only a VERY small percentage of people actually want to do hard work. Even in the first 3 miles (the easy section on the East side) some of those seemingly simple turns took significant benchwork to maintain flow.

    That's going to be the key to getting more trail....the RIGHT people stepping up and doing the heavy ass political and physical lifting. I'll say right now I believe the average person riding the trails is not truly interested in the above average effort it takes to build trail from scratch, but I'd be fine being dead wrong on this, too. If you have concerns, direct them toward the trail steward. I guarantee you'll get results if there is an erosion issue....but as far as pussing the features (PtF)...not gonna happen.
    rugger, gotdurt and MrMentallo like this.

  16. #96
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    It's funny how this thing has evolved. As of early last year, I doubted the existence of this trail. With some secret handshakes and winks and nods, I finally found the path. It was amazing the progress that was made over such a short period of time. Every time I would go ride, there would be another section of awesome trial, and more ribbons leading away. At the same time I would see more and more users, from runners, to walkers, and many bikers. Almost anyone I talked to out there was amazed and thankful. One lady referred to the builders as the "trail elves". At the same time though, the short cuts and obstacle bypasses were showing up. Just kind of wondered why people that were so impressed with this trail, felt compelled to have to immediately change it.
    I'm happy as hell now that the cat's officially out of the bag, and that the landowners have embraced it. I've been on injured reserve because of "Deception" since the spring and Jonesing to get back out there.
    Help out anyway you can. The trail elves deserve it!
    gotdurt and rugger like this.

  17. #97
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    I have not ridden Brushy Creek. It's sounds great and I want to.

    My question/post was more in the way of a general inquiry triggered by the shortcut comment.

    I appreciate the well worded responses.

    rugger was assuming by vision I meant, "someone's opinion that should not be the rule." That is what I meant.

    There is a trail near Dick Nichols that you have to slow down to get around a tree. I enjoy a nice slalom-ly trail, but in my mind, this is a tighter turn that is incongruous with the flow of the rest of the trail. So I cleared an alternate line. Didn't have to cut anything, or move any rock, just moved some logs and brush to create a new 12' long pathway past the existing bend in the trail. Viola, a faster way through. The original trail with it's feature was still there, but this new 12 foot path (every foot built to IMBA guidelines!) was available for anyone too.

    I come back in a week and someone had blocked it off again. I would have been totally baffled if I had not been participating on this board for several months. So yes, this thing I did, that in my mind was totally harmless, was not in line with the "vision" of the trail steward. That steward is forcing everyone to negotiate/enjoy/endure that feature. I let it alone, respecting the steward's wishes.

    The skiing comparison is good I think. I'll use another one. Sometimes I want to test myself on the slopes. I want to see what I can do. Maybe do more than I ever have before. When I am on the difficult slope I have to stop frequently. I fall down. I get hurt. Fun stuff.
    But sometimes I just want to casually go back and forth and get lost in my thoughts. Ride from the top of the mountain to the bottom never stopping. As in never "putting your foot down" in biking.

    You can do that on ski mountains because there are lots of different skill leveled trails. But mountain bike trail systems in our area usually don't have that luxury of available space for multiple trails of different skill levels. That's why I still don't understand the problem with having a technical, challenging line on a trail, and if possible, less challenging by-passes that allow a different experience on that same trail. One trail that accomodates different leveled riders. Or, different desires of an individual rider, on different days.

    I just have a hard time understanding the mentality. Thank you for being patient with my inquiring mind.

  18. #98
    hold my beer and watch this! RMBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Tip View Post
    You can do that on ski mountains because there are lots of different skill leveled trails. But mountain bike trail systems in our area usually don't have that luxury of available space for multiple trails of different skill levels. That's why I still don't understand the problem with having a technical, challenging line on a trail, and if possible, less challenging by-passes that allow a different experience on that same trail. One trail that accomodates different leveled riders. Or, different desires of an individual rider, on different days.
    not true. Ski areas tend to be one big system per town right?

    Town Lake is bunny slope
    Walnut is green
    and so on...
    Quote Originally Posted by Everyone
    Is Walnut Dry?

  19. #99
    Mojo Funky Mofo rugger's Avatar
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    The main reason, for the most part, we cannot have both easy and challenging lines at Deception is space - we have very limited on space. When we first created the trail we expected to get 2-3 miles of pretty easy trail out there. Also, TBH, we intended to make a trail that was meant to be very difficult. But you have Picnic and Mulligan that were intentionally made easy with a few very tech features as alternate lines.

    Also, keep in mind that "choke points" are created and used for a variety of reasons (or no reason at all). Some reasons that we consider - to slow riders down for an upcoming feature, managing erosion, managing speed (yes there are times when a build want to slow things down) or even just for a visual feature.

    People even mistake grade reversals (which have very legitimate benefits) for breaking the flow or slowing them down. They want to "straighten them out", but in doing so they create real drainage and erosion issues. I am not saying we have managed erosion and drainage exceptionally, but we try and we have a decent understanding of the concept and practice.

    I have those days when I want to ride for an hour or 2 and not dab (putting your foot down), when I want that kind of ride I go to Walnut, St Eds and Thumper (just kidding about that one).

    Like Morealice is saying, after putting in an enormous amount of our time we "get it", we say to ourselves, "THIS is why you don't f$%# with someone else's work." We've spent nights just undoing other's sanitization efforts. We also understand and adapt, we have rerouted many spots, we have 'allowed' a stepping stone here and there - we get it and we also consider the hikers and runners when we look at something being modified. We say, yea, I can see how that step off to the side would help a hiker step up that 2 footer or how 'unnecessary' armoring will feet a runner's feet dry.

    We also, say, "I can't make that, but someone can, leave it like it is."
    Forgiveness comes easier than permission.

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  20. #100
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    Wait until someone puts on a race out there....

    You'll see lines form that ya'll could never imagine.

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