Interesting post. Sorry you didn't enjoy yourself.

Actually my Strava told me we averaged, because that's how Strava works, 7.9 mph for our 11 mile jaunt. Some segments we went 5 mph, some segments we went 12 mph.The fast group came in at 10.2 for their 16 mile effort. We got back to the shop at 7:30. I drank three beers. So pretty much exactly as I stated in my post this afternoon.

Sorry you got lost there at the end. We don't know how that happened. I WAS behind you at the time so it is baffling how you got lost. Sorry you fell too, but that's part of the mountain biking world. So HTFU. I wouldn't normally say that to a poster but you did tell me to go fuck myself.

To anyone deciding whether or not to come out with us I strongly suggest installing Strava on your phone. Go out and ride some TRAIL to see what you average to see if you can hang or not. When I say we have a slow group (ME!) I guess I am saying that in comparison to most bikers that are out on the trails. I would not suggest someone to buy a bike and come out at night the next day. Unless they know they can more or less keep up. And the etiquette of it would be that when you realize that you are in over your head to bail and go back to the shop. On rides, including last night's, we give multiple opportunities to quit. "The shop is right down there if you are ready to go back."

We stopped a lot for clsmyth to catch up. We don't leave people behind. We've had lots of newbies come out. Most stay and become part of the fun community. And it is a very good time. Especially when the conditions were perfect like they were last night.

I can understand the frustration. The one time I rode with yall out there, I had a hard time keeping pace and it kicked my butt and was frustrating. That was during the day with visibility, but I didn't know the trails. Its hard to hang with a group that knows the trails when you don't. I actually would not recommend doing the C&D unless you have ridden the trails before hand and know them well enough. I ride solo because I don't enjoy group riding. I enjoy my pace and the peace involved.

I showed up once to ride as well. A riding buddy of mine flatted within the first mile or so and every one of you rode right by without even offering to help. I also passed you guys last night going the opposite direction which led to me almost getting run over by every person who blasted by. The group needs to organize and lay some ground rules before they piss off every other trail user out there.

once on a group ride I as well flatted, after every single person had ridden past avoiding eye contact and mute; I fixed the flat like an adult and continued on like a grown ass person. weird.

All disappointment in life comes from unfulfilled expectation.
The expectation of ride pace, the on trail support system, the comfort level of those involved; one could go on and on.
Seems clear communication from both sides would have helped in this case. A few simple statements like, "I am completely unfamiliar with these trails" or "There may be some sections we'll blast on, so be ready".
Even a simple call out at the start, "Who is new here? Who might need a guide?"

Oh who am I kidding this isn't my ride and I don't really care.

I volunteer to make signs and install directional arrows on the trails that are not bordered by roads.

Originally Posted by GFYO

once on a group ride I as well flatted, after every single person had ridden past avoiding eye contact and mute; I fixed the flat like an adult and continued on like a grown ass person. weird.

Which is exactly what the person I referenced did. The point is that it's common courtesy to at least check and make sure that the person has what they need.

Originally Posted by Ernest Borgniner

I volunteer to make signs and install directional arrows on the trails that are not bordered by roads.

NO.

Originally Posted by Ernest Borgniner

I volunteer to make signs and install directional arrows on the trails that are not bordered by roads.

Do you want trails full of walkers and dog poop?
Because that's how you get trails full of walkers and dog poop.

I've done my fair share of group rides and I understand that it's not easy to run these with people that you don't ride with on a regular basis. The ride leaders certainly aren't getting paid to guide anyone around so I don't expect anything more from them than I do from any other rider I happen to see.

Clsmyth - I understand your frustration and it sucks that you had a shitty time. It goes without saying that we're all adults here and the folks hosting the ride aren't responsible for your fun or well being. They are simply going for a ride and are welcoming anyone that wants to tag along and join them. Unless they specifically say that the ride is a 'no drop ride', don't expect anyone to sweep or wait for you. You need to gauge your ability to stay with the group and if you're not feeling it, you self drop.

1. @clsmyth, you WERE the sweep. And you really let us down. ;-)
2. "it sounds like you guys need to run a better ride, at least for newbs." The "you guys" is you! Know that this is not a sponsored ride. There is no organization. This is "Lord of The Flies" in a good way...self organizing bunch of miscreants that all have a passion for mountain biking. I'd be happy to take you out and show you the trails sometime. Then you can be a ride leader for the beginner's group.
3. SATN has no "woods" so you must have really been lost.

I do like this thread. It touches on the core of why we group ride. For me, before each group ride, I get a little nervous knowing that I'll probably end up in Zone 4/Zone 5, pushing myself to keep up. It's going to hurt. I get dropped. Then I work harder to not get so dropped the next time.

How I met Dan last night: At the beginning of last night's ride I was feeling good, strong and fast. Then we got out of the parking lot. Like a millennium falcon light speed jump (nerd!), my riding friends in front of me disappeared. Poof! I struggled to go faster. While in Zone 5, panting, questioning why I own a mountain bike, my front wheel washed out and I OTHed in style. I Aikido-rolled like a ninja (do ninja's practice Aikido?) but lost my head lamp. It was out. So I got behind some guy and continued. That guy was Dan and he was new to the trail. We turned right (instead of left?) and ended up in some culdasac. We took roads in attempt to find the group again. While waiting, I learned Dan used to be in the Coast Guard for 22 years of service. Bad ass. I mentioned I did a stint in Afghan as a civilian. Dweeb. We reunited with the group and started out again. We kept up until Barstow, then "poof", the faster group was gone again. Dan and I spent the next 30 minutes stumbling around Dick Nichols trails until we found our way out. An adventure.

But don't blame the faster guys. They are the unassuming leaders that raise the bar for all of us. I don't want to every slow them down. They are there to ride, too. So what if I end up solo, getting lost, taking more "creative trail?"

Why do you group ride? To get faster? To socialize? To learn new trail? Check, Check and Check.

newbs are funny in a tampon kind of way...they should bring some on every ride...for multiple purposes..

I'll speak up. So I am one of the people that is being referenced here that flatted and was left behind. It was my first and only time to try to make this ride. I am a strong , self-supporting rider who knows the trail Network very well. What was surprising was the complete lack of even a single person checking in to make sure I had everything I needed. It happened close to the shop, I did have everything, but that's not the point. The only comments that I heard was from the guy behind me who ended up coated in sealant. 15ish people then passed me without saying a word. At that point I realized this was not a group ride, it is an XC race and not at all the social ride I was led to believe it was. And that is fine if that is what you want the ride to be. I lead group rides of many different styles and my opinion is that this ride is just simply too big to be a ride that just naturally filters itself into ability levels. My suggestion is to break up into at least two groups , one group that is fast and knows the trails and can find their way back home if they get dropped, and another group that is more of a guided no drop ride that has a leader and a sweeper. Start in opposite directions of each other and hang out in the parking lot afterwards, and make sure everyone makes it to their car.

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Originally Posted by ninjammin

I showed up once to ride as well. A riding buddy of mine flatted within the first mile or so and every one of you rode right by without even offering to help. I also passed you guys last night going the opposite direction which led to me almost getting run over by every person who blasted by. The group needs to organize and lay some ground rules before they piss off every other trail user out there.

So I understand, you were with your buddy when he flatted? So he already had someone with him? Is the expectation that every rider should stop and offer aid even when 2 or more people are there? BTW, every rider I roll with always asks: "Do you have everything you need?" or "Are you okay?"

You were almost run over? Did you not yield to the faster riders? ;-) I always find this a funny line as I've never heard of any head on collision with cyclists, has anyone? I've heard of people clipping each other but being run over? How is that even possible? If guys are riding into people, why aren't they hitting every tree around every corner? Now that would be funny. Or were they purposely trying to run you over last night? That guy Wes, maybe, but everyone?

And how would you recommend the group organize to not "piss off every other trail user out there?" Let you lead the group? I'm already pissed at you and I'm a trail user. Come out and help organize.

Originally Posted by Kill Phil

I'll speak up. So I am one of the people that is being referenced here that flatted and was left behind. It was my first and only time to try to make this ride. I am a strong , self-supporting rider who knows the trail Network very well. What was surprising was the complete lack of even a single person checking in to make sure I had everything I needed. It happened close to the shop, I did have everything, but that's not the point. The only comments that I heard was from the guy behind me who ended up coated in sealant. 15ish people then passed me without saying a word. At that point I realized this was not a group ride, it is an XC race and not at all the social ride I was led to believe it was. And that is fine if that is what you want the ride to be. I lead group rides of many different styles and my opinion is that this ride is just simply too big to be a ride that just naturally filters itself into ability levels. My suggestion is to break up into at least two groups , one group that is fast and knows the trails and can find their way back home if they get dropped, and another group that is more of a guided no drop ride that has a leader and a sweeper. Start in opposite directions of each other and hang out in the parking lot afterwards, and make sure everyone makes it to their car.

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If I was one of the guys that passed you last night without offering assistance, I apologize but am surprised. I passed 2 guys on the side and asked if they were okay. I fell and 2 people stayed with me. I lost my light and 2 other people offered to ride in front. People were laughing and ribbing and having a good time. I had no knowledge of the drama. But knowing some of the riders, I'll defend the group. The ones I know are some of the most generous people I know. They would always offer aid. If you want the ride to be different, help.

Originally Posted by cramsay3

So I understand, you were with your buddy when he flatted? So he already had someone with him? Is the expectation that every rider should stop and offer aid even when 2 or more people are there? BTW, every rider I roll with always asks: "Do you have everything you need?" or "Are you okay?"

You were almost run over? Did you not yield to the faster riders? ;-) I always find this a funny line as I've never heard of any head on collision with cyclists, has anyone? I've heard of people clipping each other but being run over? How is that even possible? If guys are riding into people, why aren't they hitting every tree around every corner? Now that would be funny. Or were they purposely trying to run you over last night? That guy Wes, maybe, but everyone?

And how would you recommend the group organize to not "piss off every other trail user out there?" Let you lead the group? I'm already pissed at you and I'm a trail user. Come out and help organize.

The buddy who flatted was with the group and it was not on last night's ride. I was waiting in the lot for a late friend. If you've never heard of a head on collision with cyclists, just search the forum. It happens. Riders going in opposite directions close on each other much faster than a rider approaches a stationary object like a tree. You're welcome to be pissed at me for giving some reasonable feedback. I'm not going to tell you guys how to run your ride, but it certainly seems like some communication would benefit both the riders and other trail users.

Originally Posted by cramsay3

If you want the ride to be different, help.

....yeah, I'm sure he'll show up and offer suggestions since you're being so receptive now.

Originally Posted by cramsay3

If I was one of the guys that passed you last night without offering assistance, I apologize but am surprised. I passed 2 guys on the side and asked if they were okay. I fell and 2 people stayed with me. I lost my light and 2 other people offered to ride in front. People were laughing and ribbing and having a good time. I had no knowledge of the drama. But knowing some of the riders, I'll defend the group. The ones I know are some of the most generous people I know. They would always offer aid. If you want the ride to be different, help.

I'm confused why you think this is so much about you. And please accept my suggestion offered as my help.

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My point was that the group usually takes care of one another, including me. I don't even help to organize the rides. I just take exception to others offering their advice without participation. And for the record, it's always about me.

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Originally Posted by clsmyth

Again, it sounds like you guys need to run a better ride, at least for newbs. Or else warn us that we need to stay away until we know SATN somewhat well and can ride it at speed. Experience which is, BTW, impossible to achieve without actually riding with you guys, since SATN is a collection of 70+ miles of unmarked trail segments with no map.

-cls

Can't comment on the C&D, as I've never done it and I like to ride solo. But if you do a little bit of preparation you can have an idea where you are going.