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Thread: Spoke Lacing Questions....

  1. #1
    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    Spoke Lacing Questions....

    Okay, I've built my first set of wheels. Still learning about the process, but for the most part, I did well. Got some more pointers from the wrench at my LBS. Now I've got some questions about the lacing patterns.

    1) How do you determine spoke length for different patterns? By this I mean how would I determine the length of spokes for a 3X drive side pattern and then a 2X (or dare I even say it as an example???) or a radial laced Non-Drive side? I'm using a spoke calc (several of them actually) and only see it for the lacing pattern I specify (i.e. 3X on both sides).

    2) Is there really an advantage of mixing the lacing patterns?

    3) And what is this "Crow's foot" Pattern I read about? I've read about it, seen it in the drawings, and have contemplated trying it one time just to see if I can do it. Will someone at a shop see this and think I'm smoking rock?
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

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    TXRAiDR, if you're using DT's spoke calc you'll need to change the 3X to a 2x in the little box. change nothing else. it will give you both lengths for a 2X DS and NDS wheel but the only one you'll write down is the one for the NDS (left).

    here's a link if you haven't used this one.

    DT Swiss Spoke Calc

    if you don't find the rim or hub, you have to get the dimensions from the company and plug them in.

    different lacing patterns are for extra fancy wheels. also along these lines are using different spoke gauges for the front, drive, and non drive rear.

    some builders say that using fewer crosses on the NDS will get rid of dead weight since the NDS of a wheel doesn't "work" as hard as the DS. i tend to think that even though the tension is lower on an NDS, that the NDS sees it fair share of twisting and torque-ing.

    i think it looks really nice when a builder goes the extra mile (if it's something the builder thinks is appropriate) and does a 1X/3X rear. or a 2X front. that little extra touch, ya know?

    also some really nice touches to a handbuilt are:

    -the labels of the rims are read from the DS of the bike.

    -if you look through the valve hole in the rim, you see the label of the hub. that's one that gets missed a lot.

    -the label of the front hub can be read from the vantage point of the rider atop the bike.

    -the rim tape can be read from the drive side of the bike if there is no tube or tire on the wheel.

    -bearing preload is re-adjusted after the build is complete.

    -the wheel's tension is relieved until the wheel "stands" true.

    -and effort is made to make sure the spokes lie in the straightest path from the hub to the rim.



    i've only seen Crow's Foot on two bike in my life.

    one set was a rebuild for a budding trials rider. he said that he prefered it. ok. no problems. i rebuilt it cause the current wheel got stepped on in a crash while trialsin'.

    the other was on a track bike. the guy said he got the bike like that and didn't have much to say since he'd never ridden anything else.

    i guess wit would be cool to try but as for performance i couldn't say.

    it's basically a cross between radial and a 1X or 2X.



    on thing to remember about changing lacing patterns, is that the previous spokes from the previous patterns leave a little groove in the hub flange. some wheelbuilders will prefer not to change the lacing pattern because the spokes might end up sitting on the edge of that groove. or at some weird angle across the groove. flange failure and spoke failure are usually the cautions i hear about chaning lacing patterns but using the same hub shell.

    at the last shop, i relaced a few road wheels and suggested to the rider that we order him a new set of shells as the front was going from radial to 2x. he was down and i got to work.

    also, the gooves look kinda ugly too. i kinda like that magical shine from a perfect wheel. no scratches on any surface, clean to the naked eye, and ready to roll.

  3. #3
    dan
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    Mojo Finkster.... Who's Yur Big Daddy? dan's Avatar
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by carlos
    [B]
    also some really nice touches to a handbuilt are:

    -the labels of the rims are read from the DS of the bike.

    -if you look through the valve hole in the rim, you see the label of the hub. that's one that gets missed a lot.

    -the label of the front hub can be read from the vantage point of the rider atop the bike.

    -the rim tape can be read from the drive side of the bike if there is no tube or tire on the wheel.

    -bearing preload is re-adjusted after the build is complete.

    -the wheel's tension is relieved until the wheel "stands" true.

    -and effort is made to make sure the spokes lie in the straightest path from the hub to the rim.


    Damn, that's some bitchin' wheel etiquette, Carlos!
    Got Sporks???

    Don't give me any crap on the trail! I can find my own, thank you.

    The Biker's Choice, Hendersonville, TN www.thebikerschoice.com

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    carlos's Avatar
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    those are the little extras that come with hand builts. of course everyone is different but those are some of the ways to spot my wheels.

    of course, others do it that way too.......just some good info to know.

  5. #5
    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    That shows detail and pride. I did the "seeing hub through the valve hole" myself. I also laced up the front one where you can read the hub by looking down on it. It'll take a while to get everything aestheticaly (sp?) correct. Not to bad though for a first timer. I do know that I'm going to use 1mm shorter spokes to leave more room for trueing. The LBS mechanic suggested no more than 1mm shorter. Tips like that make the difference!
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

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    cool! the labels are the the most overlooked.

    it's possible to go 1 mm shorter and 2mm longer.

    usually the only ones that need the 1 mm shorter are really thin spokes. straight 15g and 15/16g and thinner.

    how they ride?

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    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    They ride great! Had some spoke wind up in the rear, but not to much. I can't tell a weight difference from the 32s though. I'm sure if I put them on a scale, I'll see a minor difference.

    Why would I go 2mm longer? I had asked about going two mm shorter with the spokes, and was enlighted that 1mm would be the most I would want to go shorter. I'm thinking that a shorter spoke is a stronger spoke cause there is less length. Am I sniffing bad glue on this Carlos??
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

  8. #8
    Yo
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    Originally posted by TXRAiDR
    They ride great! Had some spoke wind up in the rear, but not to much. I can't tell a weight difference from the 32s though. I'm sure if I put them on a scale, I'll see a minor difference.
    I think the whole light weight benefit thing is way overblown. I've got two wheelsets that I run on my mountain bike. One is LX hubs laced with 32 14/16 spokes to Synergy rims - weighs about 1900g. The other is Hugi 240 hubs laced with 28f 32r 15/16 spokes to 517 rims and weighs less than 1500g. Almost a pound difference between the two set.

    I only notice the difference when I pick the bike up to put it in the truck - and I notice that the LX wheelset is stiffer. I can't for the life of me tell a difference riding. I notice a -whole- lot more change moving from 35psi in the tires to 42... Rotational mass my ass. It may be true in theory, but in application, I think there are so many additional variables that the 'gains' are minimal at best.

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    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    I've done my second set of wheels now. Is it me, or is it really easier to build a 36 hole wheel versus a 28 hole (or lower spoke count for that matter) wheel? Seems like I spent less time trueing the wheel and made less adjustments. Carlos, got any view point? BTW, this set is Ultegra laced to Open Pros. Rode them tonight, and they're stiff! I likes em!
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

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    could be.

    i've not noticed a difference either way.

    i like 28 holes with a 3X and 32's with a 2X. they just look really nice.

    sounds like a really nice set.

    what's next?

  11. #11
    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    Perhaps a set of mountain bike wheels. The frame is coming in this week. I don't know when I'll build them though, perhaps in May. This stuff is cool! Thanks for the insight.
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

  12. #12
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    do you have any ideas? which frame is this?

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    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    Originally posted by carlos
    do you have any ideas? which frame is this?
    Yes I do. I'm thinking XT hubs to either Velocity Rims or to Mavic 517's. This is for the new Jamis Komodo Frame.
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

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    Ooooo!

    will this be a trail set or lightweight trail set?

  15. #15
    Mojo Road Warrior TXRAiDR's Avatar
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    Well, I want to use it for a little bit of everything. With the gas prices going up in Houston all ready, and my COL allowance not going through, I'm leaning towards commuting 2-4 times a week. I want something that I can use on the trails and on the pavement. With the shit roads we have, 36 hole by 3X seems the most logical.
    "As long as I breathe, I attack"-Bernard Hinault
    I've got more skill on two wheels than the majority of people have on two legs.

  16. #16
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    I've built up a couple of sets of wheels using the Velocity Synergy rims. I quite like them - substantially cheaper than Mavic or Bontrager rims, ASYM option, tall brake track, decent weight. I did ding one up pretty good, but the company sent me a new one to replace it free of charge.

  17. #17
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    commuting is fun....carry a big gun.

    36 and some thinner spokes to keep the weight down. 15/16g?

    technikal, so that did they say about the rim?

  18. #18
    Yo
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    I haven't talked to them since I sent it back. I'll drop them an email today and see what they have to say.

    So far, the replacement rim, as well as the front rim, have held up perfectly. In fact, other than the initial dings (which I was able to straighten out with a cresent wrench) the 'defective' rim was fine. It could have just been cirucmstance, but Velocity said they'd had a couple of people report the same thing, so they wanted the rim back to examine....

  19. #19
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    cool.

    i always wonder about that sort of thing. i flat spotted two rims and didn't get a pinch flat. that amazes me.

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