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Thread: Be a good citizen

  1. #21
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    Originally posted by Chris aka Killer

    BTW, do you know who trained Mr. Bin Laden?
    Here's a question - what the hell difference does it make? If George W. had personallly trained him at the White House, would it in any way minimize or negate the level of attrocity that was committed?

    And the US policy in the Middle East can be argued in a lot of different ways depending on your perspective, but <b>NOTHING JUSTIFIES WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY.</b> Wholesale attacks on the civilian population is a cowardly, evil and completely unjustifiable act.

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    Originally posted by TechniKal
    And the US policy in the Middle East can be argued in a lot of different ways depending on your perspective, but <b>NOTHING JUSTIFIES WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY.</b> Wholesale attacks on the civilian population is a cowardly, evil and completely unjustifiable act.

    Two subjects to be avoided, collide on MoJo.
    [list=1][*]Religion[*]Politics[/list=1]

    My comment was not aimed at arguing the Mid East Policies, nor was it meant to justify what has happened. What I want people to ask themselves is why has Usama bin Ladin declared war on American and all Americans?

    In all the media coverage the "why" this tragedy occurred is never discussed.




    p.s.
    be a good citizen and give blood (if you don't already give regularly)
    Last edited by aLaN; 09-12-2001 at 11:46 AM.
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  3. #23
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    Originally posted by aLaN


    why has Usama bin Ladin declared war on American and all Americans?

    Why do some Christian wackos get off on blowing up abortion doctors? Why did Ted Bundy get off on killing young girls? Why did Hitler want to eliminate the Jews? Trying to make a logical assumption based on completely illogical behavior is a fruitless exercise.

    Has the US support of Israel and our actions in the M.E. made us a more visible target for extremists? Yes - but we'd be a target even if we didn't support Israel. These distrurbed folks view anything other than what fits their particular, twisted views as an afront to their beliefs and an assualt on their way of life. The US is the dominate symbol of western culture in the world, and as such, we are the default enemy.

    It's a shame that these idiots hide behind religion and use it as justification for their cowardly acts. I imagine that the vast, vast, vast majority of Musliums are appalled by what has happened.

  4. #24
    MoJo Brewer Cornell's Avatar
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    I'm an American first!

    I wanted to donate blood, but a recent trip to Germany would not allow me to (Mad Cow stuff).

    Suffice it to say that the act yesterday was dastardly and evil. You can have your opinions about whether it was cowardly and compare that to our own military acts, but as for me, I'm an American. My heart bleeds for those that were killed, both rescuers and innocent victims alike. And yes, they were Americans too. My allegiance will always be to this great country, right or wrong. I may not always agree with our leaders, but you will never see me rubbing shoulders with Hanoi Jane. Ultimately, this country gives you the freedom to disagree with the leadership and then defends that right.

    Yeah, I work at a military base, my folks were both in the Air Force and my wife served for eight years and nearly had to do a stint in the Gulf. Maybe that makes me biased. But dammit, I'm flying my flag proudly today because I love this country and detest those that dare to jeopardize our happiness, safety, and freedom.

    I'm going for a ride to release some aggression. Later!

    Last edited by Cornell; 09-12-2001 at 04:38 PM.

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    Originally posted by data
    along with Manuel Noreiga. The pattern is pretty scary...
    yep, most leaders of small countries were trained by us. my father helped train noriega in panama when noriega was a second luitenant. my grandfather was in the deni - panamanian secret service - and was a contact for my father. imagine the surprise when my mom introduced my father as her boyfriend to my grandfather. a close family friend helped put castro in power. and the list goes on . . .

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    Originally posted by data

    I served in the Air Force and took part in Operation Just Cause in Panama, and Desert Shield/Storm, I think that in a way we were basically cleaning up some of our countries mistakes which I think we have an obligation to do.
    spent shells from the apaches line the wall of my uncles house in panama as they fell from it into his and my grandmothers yard. the bullets shot at the pdf headquarters.

  7. #27
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    Originally posted by Strieber
    Then let them show their faces and I'll personally see to it that they meet Allah........... When we engage in a military conflict, the US forces do everything in their power to see to it civilians are not targeted and colateral damage is minimized. These asshole intentionaly targeted tens of thousands of INNOCENT civilians. Carlos, I would keep your opinions to yourself on this one lest you come across as defending their cause. Or are you?
    Yes Carlos, please only excersice your right to free speech if it is in accordance with popular belief.

    The worse thing that could happen from all this is that we get carried away and limit personal liberties that are at the core of the American way of life.

    Of course I don't endorse this attack. I don't endorse unprovoked violence of any sort.

    Anytime I hear about a horrible act (a kid killing both his parents, a terroist attack.etc.) I always wonder what could possible drive somebody to do such a thing. That is all Carlos, Alan and I are doing here. You have to wonder what would drive men to do such things. The fact we do this does not mean we have sympathy for the culprits or feel that they are blameless. We have no intention of turning the perpetrators into victims. As Carlos said we are just looking at the bigger picture.


  8. #28
    MoJo Mother Superior Chris aka Killer's Avatar
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    Originally posted by TechniKal


    Here's a question - what the hell difference does it make? If George W. had personallly trained him at the White House, would it in any way minimize or negate the level of attrocity that was committed?

    And the US policy in the Middle East can be argued in a lot of different ways depending on your perspective, but <b>NOTHING JUSTIFIES WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY.</b> Wholesale attacks on the civilian population is a cowardly, evil and completely unjustifiable act.
    It doesn't. Killing is justified only as self-defense and arguably for retribution for crimes commited. I think we would all agree the murder of thousands of people is terrible and completely unjustified. Nuking a country in retalliation would also be an atrocity as I am sure more innocent people would be killed in such an act. I hope you guys have gotten over that knee-jerk response. We do not need a lynch mob mentallity.

    I think the fact that He was trained by the CIA is interesting, nothing more nothing less. In the atmosphere of the cold war it was probably the right thing to do. We couldn't let those evil commie russians overrun the peace loving democracy of afganistan.

    I heard several people state that we needed more funding for Intellegence to prevent terroist attacks like this. Does anybody really think more money for the CIA would do anything. I bet they were pretty well-funded in the late 70's when they trained these guys.

    Hopefully we will spend more time looking at the structure and mission or our intellegence community rather than just dumping more money in to the current system.

    Alright guys come rip me to shreds.

  9. #29
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    I say that this country allows for the unbridled thought and discussion that Carlos is trying to provoke. Its sad that this tragedy is bringing out the usual BS about blindly following our country. Happens every time we get attacked. We also know there is more than one side to this.

    Carlos got way off of Sandy's topic but what he has said in no way displays his allegiance with the terrorists. It does however show that he is capable of thinking in 360 degrees.

    If you were kidding, Bill, then ha ha. Otherwise, leave Carlos to his opinion and don't come off like you are threatening him. I pondered much of what Carlos posted, and found that he covered some of the thoughts I was having. Thank God you don't have the right to do anything to Carlos for stating his opinion. For all you know that might not even be totally his. He might just want to provoke thought.

    I know you are very (sometimes overly, like me) opinionated Bill, but its not all or nothing, and it never will be.

    That said, "God bless us all."

  10. #30
    MoJo Brewer Cornell's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Big T
    Its sad that this tragedy is bringing out the usual BS about blindly following our country.
    Come on, Big T!! Blindly?? You can't have intelligent discussion like that posted here by blindly doing anything! Does our country make mistakes? Every damn day! That doesn't mean I automatically throw patriotism out the window or decide to move to some pseudo-democratic society.

    Besides, I need to check out all the single-track here before I pack my bags for Afghanistan!

  11. #31
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    chris, unfortunately for the real world, $ is what motivates people. by giving pay-offs from whatever gov'tal agency to informants, that agency is able to get enough info to block and/or minimize any efforts made to harm americans or others. but, there is also the typical beaurocratic b.s. why do i know this, i saw first hand stuff like this going on in my very home as i was growing up as a child. i remember the stuff that happened. what makes current times harder and more complicated is that we are a generation that is questioning our gov't for the first time in history. correct me if i'm wrong, but the 60's was rebellion against the gov't, the 70's brought confusion and a rebuilding of trust in gov't, the 80's and early 90's brought a sense of complacency with the gov't and the mid/late 90's to present has brought us to question it. hence - military budget cut-backs, nat'l security cut backs (i.e. ins, border patrol, coast guard, etc.), publication of many secret gov't dealings. the public may or may not have a need to know certain things, who's to say? but, how many of americans are educated enough to make sense of what the gov't does? speak with people you know in the military, ask them how many accidents have happened due to outdated equipment in use because there is not enough budgeted for new equipment. ask how many rounds of ammunition, missiles, bombs are unusable for the same said reason. i'm not saying give them unlimited spending, but i do see this from real world view.
    Last edited by chief; 09-12-2001 at 06:52 PM.

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    I am very patriotic, Cornell. But I am not blind, nor saying you are. I have heard some people around work and such that are blinded by their emotions and just want the U.S. to nuke em. Thats not the best way to deal with it, but it would definitely satisfy my need for revenge. Its not an acceptable method though.

    I feel it will be mostly an electronic war, so I'll ride that singletrack with you if you have any free time. We can watch the carnage that will ensue, at Champ's after our ride.

  13. #33
    MoJo Brewer Cornell's Avatar
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    Sounds good, Big T! I'll wear my war paint!

    Time for me to exit stage left on this topic--on to something trivial!

  14. #34
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    Yeah, like how about that tongue. Shiite. Is that you last Halloween?

  15. #35
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    Originally posted by Chris aka Killer


    Nuking a country in retalliation would also be an atrocity as I am sure more innocent people would be killed in such an act.
    Agreed - to a point. If a country knowingly harbors terrorist, I see no problem with us attacking the country. Given the choice between a continuation of terroristic acts like we've witnessed this week, or the devastation of a country that harbors those responsible - I'll choose the devastation of the country that harbors those responsible, regardless of the damage to its civilian population.

    Originally posted by Chris aka Killer


    I hope you guys have gotten over that knee-jerk response. We do not need a lynch mob mentallity.

    I didn't see a lot of that on this board. I think people are angry - justifiably so - and are searching for something to lash out at. However, I haven't seen anyone on this board promoting genocide or anything like that - though I haven't been reading all the messages.

    Personally, I very much hope we take extremely strong actions against those responsible and anyone who assisted. Should we launch a wholesale attack to rid the earth of "those people"? Absolutely not. However, I also do not think that this is time for dimplomacy or pussy-footing around for fear of "collateral damage".

  16. #36
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    man! i come back from work and have show up to more work. not to say that posting is work but it's to be done. i only elaborated on that last bit 'cause there's a lot of different eyes reading and understanding things in different ways.

    Strieber posted, "when we engage in a military conflict, the US forces do everything in their power to see to it civilians are not targeted and colateral damage is minimized". US forces are righteous in defending the civilian population BUT "they" (whoever threatens us) aren't gonna war by some rules of etiquette. war is not controlled, although, i think some like to think that it is. just like the comments i heard today being wailed from people at the Saudi who works at the convinience store near Bike Show. justified? controled and rational? no. he's Saudi!

    "these asshole intentionaly targeted tens of thousands of INNOCENT civilians." i think this ties in with the above. who can control war? maybe i should use the word terrorism? civilian casualties are part of terrorism. how many places have been bombed (in all political conflicts but not wars per say, US, involved or not) that housed only civilians?

    "Carlos, I would keep your opinions to yourself", that just doesn't come across very well but, you're not me, and me thinks, that i will continue on. on the whole, it didn't sound very.....what's the word?

    "on this one lest you come across as defending their cause. Or are you?" i was thinking about this today as i saw an armed, 12 gauge, shot gun, at the ready behind the counter at a few of the convinience stores around town. these folks are ready for some reactionist jackass to come in and see a turban, hear a language they don't understand, or a "strange" face, and go off. do i defend the actions? no. do they have a right to their opinions? yes. do we/i/you have to agree? no. i think being able to see situations like these and others from other perspectives is critical to understanding and reacting to these situations.

    TechniKal, posted "If George W. had personallly trained him at the White House, would it in any way minimize or negate the level of attrocity that was committed?" no, but you've got to wonder WHY we do it in the first place? a teacher in high school was a member of US black ops during the Vietnam conflict/war. i'd stay after school (detention) and he and i would talk about a lot of "stuff". he'd tell me about some of the most horrific, filthy, and unspeakable things that he was trained to do by the military. some of this stuff was documented and will never see the light of day and much of it was not even part of the orders handed down. i can think of one such example that really surprised me. does anyone want me to post it? sensationalism is not the goal. a dose of truth is.

    "the US policy in the Middle East can be argued in a lot of different ways depending on your perspective, but NOTHING JUSTIFIES WHAT HAPPENED YESTERDAY", if you meant me (carlos) when you said "your perspective" then you're right. no justification.

    "Wholesale attacks on the civilian population is a cowardly, evil and completely unjustifiable act" i think this goes back to what i mentioned above. i don't think there was much though on whether a civilian target would have them viewed as cowardly. i wonder if they choose the World Trade Center because they knew there were civillians there OR because they knew this would provide them with the effect intended. in our (generalization on our) eyes they are evil. in their eyes, we are evil or more accuratly, infidels.

    alan, posted "two subjects to be avoided, collide on MoJo. 1.Religion 2.Politics", i think it's good.

    "my comment was not aimed at arguing the Mid East Policies, nor was it meant to justify what has happened. What I want people to ask themselves is why has Usama bin Ladin declared war on American and all Americans?" Former Dir. of the CIA Milt Bearden mentioned that we, "as non-agents, could never fathom becoming privy to such a esoteric botherhood, as that which exsists in these religeous factions."

    "In all the media coverage the "why" this tragedy occurred is never discussed." i don't think anyone knows. sure the Department of Defense can issue a statement and say that it was because of such and such. how could we be sure? there are MANY groups and countries who would love to have a shot at us. Bin Laden could be a puppet. what about Sadam? who many folks have we pissed off? who REALLY knows the truth?

    TechniKal posted, "Why do some Christian wackos get off on blowing up abortion doctors?" because they think abortion is wrong. "Why did Ted Bundy get off on killing young girls?", abused as a child? something about young girls? "Why did Hitler want to eliminate the Jews?" lots of different reasons. "Trying to make a logical assumption based on completely illogical behavior is a fruitless exercise" to someone else this can be viewed as illogical but to those who "beLIEve" this behavior can be seen as totally logoical. the "why", as alan mentioned, is more important than the "what"?

    "These distrurbed folks view anything other than what fits their particular, twisted views as an afront to their beliefs and an assualt on their way of life", this brings about all sorts of ideas about the use of the words disturbed, twisted, beliefs and way of life. but again, i can't help be see it the other way as well.


    "The US is the *dominate symbol of western culture in the world*, and as such, we are the default enemy", so there's no rational reason to situations like this?

    "Our war is not against American or Western people, it is against the corrupting influence of the West. What has the West given the world? A lust for power and a license to loot and plunder the poorer countries," Bin Laden said in a recent interview with an Arab journalist while urging Muslims to reject "Westernization of their culture and faith" i'm not so sure what he said was just a bunch of crazy talk.

    "It's a shame that these idiots hide behind religion and use it as justification for their cowardly acts. I imagine that the vast, vast, vast majority of Musliums are appalled by what has happened." but who can know for sure if they are appaled or not. i think of all the Native Americans that refused to convert to Christianity. who hid behind that as justification to kill these "savages"? what about the witch trials in Salem? is 50,000 lives more a tragedy than one or two or three?
    Last edited by carlos; 09-12-2001 at 11:17 PM.

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    Chief posted "yep, most leaders of small countries were trained by us. my father helped train noriega in panama when noriega was a second luitenant. my grandfather was in the deni - panamanian secret service - and was a contact for my father. imagine the surprise when my mom introduced my father as her boyfriend to my grandfather. a close family friend helped put castro in power. and the list goes on . . ." very interesting.

    Data posted "I served in the Air Force and took part in Operation Just Cause in Panama, and Desert Shield/Storm, I think that in a way we were basically cleaning up some of our countries mistakes which I think we have an obligation to do. Chief replied "spent shells from the apaches line the wall of my uncles house in panama as they fell from it into his and my grandmothers yard. the bullets shot at the pdf headquarters." who knew? very interesting.

    Chris aka Killer posted, "Yes Carlos, please only excersice your right to free speech if it is in
    accordance with popular belief." very few things bug me. i get pissed off about once a year. maybe i'd be more mellow if i just went along with whatever happened to come my way. i could sing, ba ba, baba, buba, ba, baba, i wanna be sededated!
    "The worse thing that could happen from all this is that we get carried away and limit personal liberties that are at the core of the American
    way of life." ahh personal liberties, something with the potential fantastic and/or radical.

    "Of course I don't endorse this attack. I don't endorse unprovoked violence of any sort." i wonder if this was unprovoked? we must have done something. maybe something that's not even in a history book.

    "Anytime I hear about a horrible act (a kid killing both his parents, a terroist attack.etc.) I always wonder what could possible drive somebody to do such a thing. That is all Carlos, Alan and I are doing here. You have to wonder what would drive men to do such things. The fact we do this does not mean we have sympathy for the culprits or
    feel that they are blameless. We have no intention of turning the perpetrators into victims. As Carlos said we are just looking at the bigger picture." sympathy? i personally feel some for these people who flew the planes and who got buried in the rubble (i didn't want to put them in any order but language nor print allows for "stacking"). was the choice made for them by someone in their family? would the son of one of those who flew a plane into a tower point a gun and shoot me because of the current situation? OR could i sit down with his son and try to understand his point of view? maybe his father was strong and honorable before all of this? maybe his father was bent so far out of recognition that his own son no longer recognized him and now rejects all his prejudices? i'm only emphasizing the "other" side since we all know that many of the folks who got burried under the WT Center we good, decent, human beings. i did want to mention that i didn't say all. i said many. were there men who beat their wives (or vice versa) both physically and psychologically? thieves? diviants? murderers? bigots? liars? possibly. this could also be turned around a focused on the human rights violations against women in that part of the world. are those who piloted the planes blameless? not at all.

    Big T posted, "I say that this country allows for the unbridled thought and discussion that Carlos is trying to provoke. Its sad that this tragedy is bringing out the usual BS about blindly following our country. Happens every time we get attacked. We also know there is more than one side to this." who can police thought and discussion? blindly following anything, even bacon, can be dangerous. who can be sure their actions are truly righteous? provoking thought and discussion is exactly what i'm trying to do. i can't just sit here and let myself get warped by the images on TV.

    "Carlos got way off of Sandy's topic but what he has said in no way displays his allegiance with the terrorists. It does however show that he
    is capable of thinking in 360 degrees" we fight globally so we must think and feel globally. this me me me bullshit reveals small minds. try to think in terms of backyard and globally, at the same time.

    "If you were kidding, Bill, then ha ha. Otherwise, leave Carlos to his opinion and don't come off like you are threatening him. I pondered much of what Carlos posted, and found that he covered some of the thoughts I was having. Thank God you don't have the right to do anything to Carlos for stating his opinion. For all you know that might
    not even be totally his. He might just want to provoke thought" bill might have been kidding. if i were a violent person, and he wasn't kidding, i might have said "you know where i work", but i'm not and haven't ever been. again, telling me to keep my opinions to myself is his opinion and i can sit here and tell him off, but that's counter productive. bill has every right to act on his emotions and thought and beliefs, the consequences are the result. i try to base opinions on thought. thought begets thought.

    "I know you are very (sometimes overly, like me) opinionated Bill, but its not all or nothing, and it never will be." terry, except for your love of your bike.... all or nothing.

    Cornell posted "Does our country make mistakes? Every damn day! That doesn't mean I automatically throw patriotism out the window or decide to move to some pseudo-democratic society." will we ever be able to prevent these mistakes from happening agian? are these mistakes or motives for a gain of some sort? you bring up a very interesting point. 700 getting ripped was bad but by building new trails, all trails, (thanks, alan, for helping me to see those hidden trails) we make ammends with ourselves to defend, blindly(?), that wich brings us joy. coming together to ride.....and crash....and let others see us crash.....and see others crash......and see others face plant in some mud......hit a tree.....almost get bit by a spider....get poked (not that way!).....wipe out 1 minute into a ride......case a jump.....and (almost) fall in a creek.

    Chief posted "the public may or may not have a need to know certain things, who's to say? but, how many of americans are educated enough to make sense of what the gov't does?" a great point.

  18. #38
    MoJo Mother Superior Chris aka Killer's Avatar
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    I would support an attack on certain countries as well. I wouldn't think Nuclear weapons would be needed, I think we have much more precise weaponry though.

    I just hope we don't act too quickly and get the wrong people.

    Remember the Oklahoma city bombing. I have to admit that I thought some Islamic extremist were responsible until the evidence came out against mcviegh. Also does the name Richard Jewel ring a bell, they were ready to crucify the wrong man!

    Of course this may be a good oppurtunity to take out any known terroists and terroist supporting states weather they were involved in this attack or not. Why not get everybody while we have support around the globe? Of course this could get carried too far. It could be like a Godfather scene where we wack all our enemies at once. I never liked that damn Mo Green!



    That damn Mo Green (speakers required)

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